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Sunday, September 26, 2010

Spawning [1/12/2011]


Keep in Mind:

1) You MUST have spawn points placed for spawn areas to work.

2) If you do not place initial spawns, your players will spawn in points predetermined by Bungie's design (usually where initial spawn points are in the original map variant), and the same goes for respawn points.

3) Respawn Zones = Basically irrelevant in Invasion.

4) Spawn Ordering does not effect Spawn Points or Spawn Zones (however, it plays a major role in the Spawn Areas used in Invasion).


Respawn Zones: divide maps into areas that, utilizing data from
current activity on the map, assist players in spawning away from danger, can be set to only influence a certain team or be neutral and effect all.
Normal (Respawn Zone): Most powerful Influencer; with one of these placed on the map, players will spawn within it no matter the level of danger in the area. Best used to divide maps into team territories (not directly relating to Territories Game Type), or sides, while then placing Weak and Anti Zones within, set to neutral, to further influence spawning.
Weak Respawn Zone: Has an additive effect upon chance of spawning a player in a location when stacked on a Normal Zone and is half the power of a Normal Zone. When using the stacked grid method (example in visual aide below), they are best left neutral.
Anti Respawn Zone: If set to a team, it will make it so that that specific team
will not be able to spawn in that area. (useful for making it so that teams
can"t switch bases in the middle of a game, as would happen many times
during games of Slayer on Valhalla and Sandtrap in Halo 3). Has an subtractive effect upon chance of spawning a player in a location when stacked on a Normal Zone and is equal and opposite to the Weak Zone in this respect. When using the stacked grid method (example in visual aide below), they are best left neutral.

Basically, I would say to define each team's side of the map with large Respawn Zones set to their team and then use Anti Respawn Zones to define areas where you would not like players to spawn as often and then use Weak Zones to give priority to areas such as bases, or out of the way paths, keeping the latter two types Neutral, like below. Placing priority on safer areas will make players apwn there more often, but will allow them to spawn elsewhere if those areas become too dangerous.


The stacking effect of Spawn Zones will only occur if a Regular (Strong) Respawn Zone has been placed and if it is part of the stacked pieces, unless you are simply overlapping an Anti with a Weak, in which case the area of the overlap will have them cancelled out by each other.

If you place a Weak on/in a Strong, it will become stronger, another Weak will make it stronger yet, the same goes for an Anti, but in the opposite direction. Weak's and Anti's would still cancel each other out in this situation. I would advise against going further than two layers of Weak's and Anti's on your Strong Zone.

Quoted from O'Than:

Overlapping Zones
Using only Weak and Anti zones together can never have an effect greater than one single Weak or Anti zone. They DO cancel each other out though.

Weak + Anti = 0
Weak + Weak = Weak
Anti + Anti = Anti

there is already a strong zone in the same area. Then they combine as you would expect:

Strong + Weak > Strong
Strong + Weak + Weak > Strong + Weak
Strong + Anti < Strong
Strong + Anti + Anti < Strong + Anti

And finally, two strong zones
don't ever combine. 

I might have highlighted something, but you would have noticed for yourself. (will never)


Players also have and AoE where they themselves influence spawn behavior,  a comparison of strengths (no scale of power is available yet), is below, quoted from my post in O'Than's Forge World Group. It can be seen here.

Teammate*<Weak/Anti Respawn Zone
Weak/Anti Respawn Zone<Enemy* **
Enemy* **<Dead Teammate/Self
Dead Teammate/Self<<<<Respawn Zone

*Stacks per instance
**Varies Per Weapon and L.o.S.

Projectiles, such as rockets, also have a negative influence, surrounding and preceding them.

A player's spawn influence doesn't affect the zones they are in directly, but is as if they have a zone of influence themselves, that travels with them, is adjusted per their L.o.S. and Weapon as well as per their living status, and will apply its effect as stacked upon other existing zones of influence, including those of other players.




Kill and Safe Zones: 

As explained by Bungie, if you place a Safe Zone, any time a player is outside of it, they will die, or begin their timer, and if a Kill Zone is placed inside a Safe Zone, it will take precedence. Best practice is to use Soft Safe Zones (with a countdown) to define the playable areas, Soft Kill Zones to denote areas where you would rather players not go/camp, such as roof tops, and Hard Kill Zones so that players die when they fall off the map (think The Cage). Using Hard Safe Zones tends to lead to too many problems and many Jetpackers dying seemingly randomly for poking their head out of your proposed "ceiling". You also want to take into consideration that using a Hard Safe Zone coupled with Soft Zones is essentially the same as using Hard Safe Zones alone; as soon as you leave, you will die, no countdown, which is yet another argument to avoid Hard Safe Zones unless you have a very specific application.


Initial Loadout Camera: 

Shows a view of the map during the choosing of
initial spawn loadouts and occasionally spawning in general. Place one per team 
AND one Neutral so that a good view of the teams bases, respectively, and the
map. (Make sure to have one of these placed so that the attacking and defending teams in Invasion can see their objectives and begin to formulate paths to them while waiting to spawn).

Use Respawn Zones to design the bare-bones spawning grid (it is good to overlap spawn points into multiple Zones), game type specific spawning areas are better defined via Hill Markers; tags for those can be found in the Tagging Chart located in the Sidebar to the left and in the Invasion Guide below that.
Take note that some of the tags are not for spawning persons or even for use with Hill Markers, even though they may work, such as flag capture points and such; it is much better to spawn Bombs, Cores, Oddballs, and place Skull and Flag Capture points and Bomb Plant points on the Flag Capture Point object (disc with UNSC logo) and only spawning FLAGS on Flag Stands (And even then only in Stockpile). Also, for Skull and Flag Capture and Bomb Plant points, make sure to set an area so that the players will be able to score.


  1. I have a quick question:

    I'm building a race map on fore world (it uses ALL of forge world) and though I haven't opened it up in the race game-type yet, due to me only trying to make the actual track, I ran into a issue that I need to consider at this stage:

    When a player dies, how do I make sure they re-spawn at the re-spawn point closest to their most recent checkpoint, and not at one near the begging or end of the track?

  2. I have a quick question:

    I've made a new gametype where one guy has to run to 5 points and see how far he gets. the next round someone else tries.there are 4 players, so the other 3 are at fixed positions trying to stop him.like arnie in that film, you are the running man. It plays almost as good as it sounds except for 2 things:
    I use territories for the points(team rally unavailable), but it only lasts for 4 rounds instead of 8? the second thing is that spawning the red player to be running man in round 1, then to be a sentry guy on round 2, etc. doesn't work! I set spawn orders correctly (order 1 means round 1 right?) and the spawning is random! please help me, because I can play it but i have to use teleporters at the start, on a 30 sec. spawn. and for 4 rounds only. forge = broken?

    p.s. I also get a gamertag not allowed to upload map, type message when I try to upload map.So don't expect to see it until bungie sort it out(Death Orb isn't offensive}

  3. Side Note: I'm under the impression that these are both from the same person.

    For the first one:

    I know that when you use the Race game type, and die, you are supposed to spawn at the last checkpoint you made it to. But that's only if you don't place any respawn points. You only need initial spawns, set to the race spawn tag, at the start of the "track."

    Number 2:

    You have your "track", where the runner has to travel across, with an initial spawn point at the beginning and up to five territories along its way. Then you will end up having to have 3 other areas, all separate (so as to not allow the other players to kill each other) or with them spawning on a custom power-up that makes them invulnerable for the full 90 seconds possible, linked to the "shooting ranges," where they will be assaulting the runner, either by walkable path or teleporter. Don't place any respawn points, Just initial spawns, and leave them neutral (only place 4). It should alternate randomly, which was just fine for similar competitor/spectator game types in Halo 3. You should be using Territories adjusted to 8 rounds in the general settings. I just spent an hour experimenting with using anti respawns and initial spawns set to spawn orders for rounds and got no results.

    Spawn orders for respawn points and initial spawns are, save for when referring to Invasion, one of the very few things I do not fully understand as of yet.

    In terms of your gamer tag, someone could easily find it offensive, however, I do agree that it is not, especially in the way you are most likely using it to refer to something humorous. However, the word death is in the system as a red flag, much like other words that I'm sure you would agree should not be displayed in public situations but, like me, really don't have a problem with yourself. Because of this, it doesn't want the map showing up with your GT in the description. Sometimes, these stupid things happen; I just tried uploading a pic titled "Put an end to Spawn Camping," and it told e that it was inappropriate. I had to change the name to, "Spawn camping will be punished," which I would consider much more likely to be seen as inappropriate.

  4. is it possible to spawn a safe zone/kill zone mid game, so to speak?

  5. So far I've only seen that work in Invasion. To be honest, I've actually only witnessed it function with Despawning (as a Gated item), which I did in my first Invasion map to encourage certain movement paths. I have heard about it working with the INV_VEHICLE and INV_WEAPON tags as well, I just haven't been on the maps during the games to see if they did. I have seen someone try and set a Kill Zone to spawn in after 30 seconds during a game of Infection, it did not work, no matter what we tried. Also, setting it to teams has no effect on whom it will kill, as it will still kill everyone.

    Thanks for the comment/question.

  6. When you use anti-spawn zones, do you place them inside the normal spawn zone, and set it to the opposite color? Or same color?

  7. An anti respawn zone is the opposite of a weak, ie; the negative value of a weak zone. With this in mind, a negative zone by itself will never spawn a player in it unless as a last resort. However anti-zones can be used stacked with weak or normal spawn zones to created a layer of spawn zone priorities.
    A Strong is always strong and can't not stack with another of the same type.
    Strong + Strong = Strong
    Strong + Weak > Strong
    Strong + Anti =/= Weak < Strong
    Weak + Weak < Strong
    Weak + Anti = 0

    So through use of stacking zones, you created different zones that have priority over others as they hold a more positive influence (normally). This also allows you to set up spawns in a way that players can for spawns for a set up, such as in H3 Onslaught when one team would set up on one side to force the opposite team to spawn in the far corner of the base, allowing for a safer flag run.

  8. Thanks Schnitzel for answering the question, I never saw it get posted.

    That is essentially true, however, I have not seen proof for the weak+weak combination. If you have, please let me know, it would greatly help making things more clear. Thanks to your post, I'll be putting together a new graphic to help explain the full effects of stacking.

    Thanks for the comment.

  9. My testing indicates that your descriptions of how weak and anti weak zones function and should be used on maps are full of inaccuracies. How did you cone to your conclusions? Did you actually hear from Bungie on any of these things? Or are you guessing or repeating things non bungie employees have claimed?

  10. Actually, after thinking more about what your article states, I am thinking maybe it isn't so far off after all. I can imagine how my test may have been flawed, so scratch what I said above.

    But I am curious, what are your sources?

  11. After a few preliminary tests with Godly Perfection, I sat down, drew up control group after control group, developed multiple hypothesis, and then pieced together variables I should consider. I built multiple maps, with multiple arrangements, after taking reference from Bungie made maps. After a few hours of testing with a full box of guests and writing down almost every kill and result, I developed a system that not only works, but works better than what I saw on most Bungie maps.

    I did receive some information from Bungie staff, although it wasn't as if it was handed down from above to me specifically; in fact, they refused to even respond. I had to dig through post after post, finally finding the last bit of information I needed (which helped me determine whether or not base spawning bias should rest at 0 or 1, with reg zones being +1, weaks +.5 and antis -.5 respectively) hidden away in O'Than's group of hiding and spitefulness. It made me laugh that the rest of the info there basically confirmed ALL of my other tests and conclusions. I don't like being a dick about it, but it was ridiculous that the three most intelligently asked questions in the Req. Objects guide thread (two by me and one by Godly) where the only ones to be ignored.

  12. wow, this is very useful. I've been trying to ponder what spawn zones did (would probably help if I had the game and my 360 fixed). I have one question, would you place any respawn points in a anti-spawn zone, as a last resort?

  13. Yes, yes I would. Actually, it would be best to place your spawn points BEFORE your spawn areas.

  14. As I was trying out some things with the information you provided, I decided that it would be really great if Bungie told us explicitly how spawning operated so that for the forger could design a map with complete predictability, so that the map would work just as they want it to.

    You said that the zones feed information to each other (or something to that affect). And it seems that this is true. But without knowing what is being sent from the zones or the specific impacts, it is useless to know how to layout zones relative to the map and each other.

    If you have some more details, that would be good to share here. What you give thus far is too ambiguous, at least that is what I found in my testing.

  15. The information fed is the threat level of the zone, which is calculated via what is occuring in that zone. Enemy, boom, threat level goes up; grenade is in the air, boom, threat level goes up immensely; you just died there, boom, threat level is sky high; a teammate just died there, threat level knocks the moon over. Those arent necessarily in order, because I do not know which order to put them in, but that is the information used.

    Essentially, if you have the threat object (grenade, enemy, etc) in a zone, you would be pushed elsewhere. if you had two zones only, and the threat was in zone A, it wouldnt matter if it was 2 ft or 200 ft from Zone B, you would spawn in zone B.

    Threat counts against the bias from Weak and Regular Respawn Zones, much the same way that Anti Respawn Zones do, but to a lesser effect.

    I'll append that in when I have time, anything you think I missed?

  16. To say weak+weak < strong is misleading at best. weak zones are not the same animal as strong zones. If you have one or more strong zones, you FORCE spawning to occur in one of them. Weak zones don't force spawning, they weigh spawning. They are meant to give strong zones variations of weightings through out.

    Now to what I wanted to post about...

    I performed a test today. Three 10mx12m zones, symmetrically overlapping corners of about 2mx4m each. A in the center, B and C are the wing zones off the far corners of A.

    Spawn points in A, B, C, AB, and AC. Red1 at far end of A from intersections. Blue1 at opposite end of map out of all zones, symmetrical between B and C.

    Blue2 nearly exclusively respawns in B or C, never A, and rarely AB or AC.

    Blue1 being in A does not increase odds of Blue2 spawning in A or AB or AC.

    Also I think sniper increases radius of influence of opponent proximity.

  17. In fact, it appears that Blue1 in A seems to push Blue2 to spawn in other zones.

  18. ok, one more time... (I wish I could edit these posts)...

    Blue1 in A far end from intersections, Blue2 respawning in B or C. Red1 was shooter outside of zones symmetrically between B and C at other end of map from Blue1.

  19. This article is full of inaccuracies and we have official information from bungie now. This thread should be removed and replaced with the new information ASAP.

  20. I have fixed it, sorry it took so long. It was not Inaccurate because of presumption, but because of misinterpretation AND misinformation.